Book Review: Men On Strike

Men on strike cover

Men are a strange bunch. We’ll fight each other to the death over a patch of land. We’ll go to the mat over an imagined insult. Sometimes we brawl just for fun. But we do not enjoy conflict with women. Any relationship therapist can tell you that men tend to retreat from arguments, leaving women frustrated and isolated, and leaving relationship problems unresolved. It may be the single most common complaint from women about the men in their lives.

Dr. Helen Smith, a psychologist and blogger, has noticed that men are taking their vanishing act to a new level. In her new book, Men On Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream – and Why It Matters, she writes that men are withdrawing on a societal level. Western culture, she believes, has become unjust and hostile toward men. She wastes no time getting to the point of her book:

…If we as women allow injustice to men today, who knows what will happen to us tomorrow?… My actual audience is the man who knows that something in today’s twenty-first century is amiss. He can’t put his finger on it exactly but feels deeply that modern society has turned its back on the average male.

All around you, you hear the question “Where have all the good men gone?” But you know instinctively that it’s the wrong question. The right one is “Why have all the good men gone on strike?”

She believes men are subconsciously boycotting their lack of reproductive rights, biased family courts, oppressive double-standards at universities, belittling of men in general, and hostility toward family men in particular – all of which are pushing men toward solitary lives.

She begins with what she calls the marriage strike. While women have increasingly reported that they desire a good marriage, men are dropping out at an alarming rate. 18 percent of men ages 40-44 with less than four years of college have never married. That’s up six percent over the last 25 years. Men who graduate college are also marrying less: 84 percent, which is a nine-point drop since 1980. She blames family courts that are stacked against men, as well as a general societal condescension. (Consider the spate of recent books with titles like Are Men Necessary? and The End of Men and the Rise of Women.)

Dr. Smith offers plenty of horror stories that would make any man hesitate to marry. For instance:

I met a woman that I was sure was my soul mate…. All this changed when I lost my high paying job through downsizing.… I went to work immediately and had two jobs, but still only made about 80% of my old income. My wife gave me a year and then began sleeping with a man, who hadn’t lost his job, in my bed while I was at work. She left with him, taking almost all of my savings and anything else she could carry.… The adultery doesn’t seem to matter to the court and she got essentially everything.…

Initially it seemed to me that the book relied too heavily on that type of anecdotal evidence. That is, until I recalled my own difficulties gathering data about men. Psychology researchers seem only marginally interested in the mental health of men, and most seem to begin with the assumption that men are predators, drunks, and abusers.

For example, there is a line of research suggesting that men become depressed when they act too much like men. Accordingly, foregoing male nature is the path to happiness.* That’s precisely the type of problem Dr. Smith has written about. Men are treated as second-class citizens by the social sciences, a state of affairs that undoubtedly steered her toward anecdotal evidence, using plenty of hard data (graduation rates, divorce data, and the like) to round out her thesis whenever possible. I can hardly blame her for that, given the relative paucity of information about the inner worlds of men.

I think we could rightfully call Dr. Smith a feminist. She wants equality between the sexes, but she is none too happy with the turn that feminism has taken:

Women’s groups follow a double standard: When women lag behind men, that is an injustice that must be aggressively targeted. But when men are lagging behind women, that is a triumph of equity to be celebrated.

With Men On Strike, Helen Smith has started an important discussion. In relationships, men tend to retreat when they feel destined to lose. That’s bad for romance. Dr. Smith is describing the same retreating behavior writ large, and that’s bad for all of us. Luckily, she offers a plan for both men and women to ameliorate the problem.

men withdrawing from society

It’s an important book. Read it. You may disagree with her ideas, but it’s hard to disagree with the trends Dr. Smith exposes. And ultimately, you cannot argue with men who aren’t there.

-IS

*See, for example, Rice, S., B. Fallon, and M. Bambling. 2011. “Men and Depression: The Impact of Masculine Role Norms Throughout the Lifespan.” The Australian Educational and Developmental Psychologist 28: 133-144. The authors contend that “conformity to masculine norms” is associated with increased depression and other problems. There’s undoubtedly some truth to that, and there is certainly value in measuring and describing it. The problem is that members my profession rarely explore acceptance-based approaches to male mental health problems. The answer is almost always that we must constrain maleness and replace it with the feminine ideal. I suspect my profession would rightfully reject the idea that depressed women should act more like men.

Full disclosure: Dr. Helen is a friend, but I paid for the book (worth every penny) and I was not asked to review it.

46 comments

  • I’m sorry, but give me a break! The western world has become too hostile towards men?

    How about how hostile men have been towards women for millennia? Domestic violence is still the number one cause of female death in the western world, and is overwhelmingly committed by men against women and children.

    Men still control all of the major systems of power that control women’s lives (politics, medicine, religion, law, the corporate world).
    When was the last time a woman dictated to a man what he can and can’t do with his own body?

    I think the issue is that ‘some men’ need to grow up. The issue is with an immaturity in SOME MEN’S psyches. They are used to having power and control and don’t want to give it up. That’s really all that is happening here.

    Rather than actually try and adapt to the changing world they continue to blame women for their misfortunes, and feel that women must somehow be punished for this. The only issue is a failure (or unwillingness) to adapt/evolve to the modern world.

    I would like to express that not all men are like this BTW, and how frustrating it must be for them to feel lumped into the category of men who are like this.

    • “Domestic violence is still the number one cause of female death in the western world,”
      “Domestic violence is still the number one cause of female death in the western world,”

      This is not true.

      “and is overwhelmingly committed by men against women and children.”

      This is not certain, since men tend to underreport DV directed against them. They don’t call the cops on women as much as women call on men. DV is in reality probably more like 50-50.
      See, eg: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism-domestic-violence-men
      “Professor John Archer from the University of Central Lancashire has conducted a number of meta-analytic reviews of these studies and found that women are as likely to use domestic violence as men, but women are twice as likely as men to be injured or killed during a domestic assault. Men still represent a substantial proportion of people who are assaulted, injured or killed by an intimate partner (50%, 30% and 25% respectively).”

      Right, men are 50% of those assaulted.

      See also “Gender Symmetry” in Domestic Violence
      A Substantive and Methodological Research Review
      Michael S. Kimmel
      http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/8/11/1332.abstract

      Note that this does not factor in the disparity of methods – men who are abusers tend to use physical force, which is likely to result in police intervention, arrest, and an official report. This type of abuse is counted by the social scientists.
      Female abusers tend to use verbal humiliation and intimidation, financial harm, and family force (kidnapping the children). These methods are not considered DV by the traditional gatekeepers of DV, but are unquestionably damaging and destroy families.
      That is one of the main points of the book. The traditional gatekeepers (social scientists, health officials, police, judges, politicians, YOU) are biased to favor women over men. Things that harm women are considered horrific. That harm men? payback.

      For a different perspective than your own, try
      http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-statistics-laws-and-information-for-men/

      This is not true.

      “and is overwhelmingly committed by men against women and children.”

      This is not certain, since men tend to underreport DV directed against them. DV is probably more like 50-50. See, eg: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism-domestic-violence-men
      “Professor John Archer from the University of Central Lancashire has conducted a number of meta-analytic reviews of these studies and found that women are as likely to use domestic violence as men, but women are twice as likely as men to be injured or killed during a domestic assault. Men still represent a substantial proportion of people who are assaulted, injured or killed by an intimate partner (50%, 30% and 25% respectively).”

      See also “Gender Symmetry” in Domestic Violence
      A Substantive and Methodological Research Review
      Michael S. Kimmel
      http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/8/11/1332.abstract

      Note that this does not factor in the disparity of methods – men who are abusers tend to use physical force, which is likely to result in intervention, arrest, and an official report. This type of abuse is counted by the social scientists.
      Female abusers tend to use verbal humiliation and intimidation, financial harm, and family force (kidnapping the children). These methods are not considered DV by the traditional gatekeepers of DV, but are unquestionably damaging and destroy families. That is one of the main points of the book. The traditional gatekeepers (social scientists, health officials, police, judges, politicians, YOU) are biased to favor women over men. Things that harm women are considered horrific. That harm men? payback.

      For a different perspectiva than your own, try
      http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-statistics-laws-and-information-for-men/

    • “When was the last time a woman dictated to a man what he can and can’t do with his own body?”

      Right, so where’s my reproductive rights? The woman has the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. The man, well, he’s on the hook for child support for the next 18 years with no recourse.

      The best we get is useless advice in the form of “coulda, shoulda, woulda.” And if you don’t pay up, well now you’re a deadbeat dad and can go to jail for it.

      If someone suggests jail time for a woman who’s not ready to be a mother, it’s a god damn outrage. But possible jail time for a guy who’s not ready to be a father is the status quo. Not a peep from the feminists about that.

      • I have never said there aren’t pathetic women out there that take advantage of pathetic men, but isn’t it about the choices that one makes that land these pathetic people in these circumstances? Men making bad choices in their lives is not the fault of femininsts fighting for the overall right of women to control what happens to their own bodies.

      • Yes, it is feminism’s fault because when men advocate for the “male abortion – a way for a man to terminate his parenthood just like a woman” the feminist groups say “its not fair.” It’s fair to give women a second chance but not men? That is hypocrisy which feminism is well-noted for.

      • Male abortion? As far as I know men can’t get pregnant??

      • @Leisha: Men cannot naturally get pregnant and women cannot naturally impregnate another human being. I’m glad we’ve covered basic biology. Now onto the real issue which is parenthood. Women and men are both parents in the event of a pregnancy. A woman can single handedly terminate her and her partners parenthood, but the man cannot terminate even his own fatherhood. That is a perfect example of an inequality. No birth control is 100% and choices for men are much more limited. A man should not have fatherhood thrust upon him if he does not desire it anymore than feminists claim women should not have motherhood thrust upon them. You might say “well he should keep it in his pants” but if I were to say “she should keep her legs shut” many feminists would have a problem with the latter. Feminists do not support men relinquishing their fatherhood because the last thing on the feminist mind is equality. They want to carve out a little privilege for themselves because they are entitled. I think any man that has sex with a woman given this double standard has no sense of self-respect. The male body has ways of dealing with sexual tension that are far more fulfilling than women.

    • The problem is a system that men have been taught to buy into all our lives. Your only purpose is to be an appliance or cannon fodder for politicians, CEOs and lawyers. Now women are part of that system as well. Men need to walk away from it for our own survival. It does not imply hatred, or even anger. We have literally been living in The Matirix, but more and more of us are taking the red pill and waking up. We don’t want power or control of anyone but ourselves.

  • BTW, the excerpt she provides tells me one thing; this guy clearly picked the wrong women to marry. Surely there must have been signs before they got hitched that she was materialistic. In fact, she probably married the guy because she knew he was a push over and easy to take advantage of. Try being less superficial about the women you marry and you may find that your relationships turn out better.

    Stop playing the victim and take control of your life!

    • “Stop playing the victim and take control of your life!”

      LOL! You should tell your feminist buddies that! They make themselves into victims over everything.

  • According to the CDC the leading cause of death for women is heart disease followed by cancers and strokes. Domestic violence does not even crack the top 10, except perhaps under the vague category of “unintentional injuries”. Furthermore, women dictate the use of men’s bodies by unilaterally filing for divorce and reducing him to a lifetime slave via alimony. Women initiate almost 75% of the divorces, and thanks to No Fault divorce, the only grounds she needs are “dissatisfaction.”

    Here’s your modern western woman: Ignorant and solipsistic. she is quick to judge others (as taught by Oprah, PBUH) but bristles with narcissistic rage at the suggestion that she bears any responsibility. Boys, if anything like this comes out for your girl’s mouth, dump her with dispatch. Daddy’s little princess deserves to become daddy’s little spinster.

    • Oh, my mistake, the leading cause of MURDER of women is by their
      ‘male’ romantic partners…that should make you feel better.

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all of the abuse a million times before, and I’ve heard all of the bitter divorcee/conservative diatribes and antidotes.

      The reality is though, that men still overwhelmingly control the systems of power that dictate women’s lives and control their bodies and it is overwhelmingly men who commit acts of murder and violence. With respect to domestic violence it is, without question, a MALE issue. Whilst some females abuse, it is OVERWHELMINGLY men abusing women and children.

      Grow up and face up to reality….and stop feeling sorry for yourselves! You’re either part of the solution or part of the problem and nobody is going to feel sorry for you.

      • The reality is though, that men still overwhelmingly control the systems of power that dictate women’s lives and control their bodies and it is overwhelmingly men who commit acts of murder and violence.

        two points:

        1) actually, a woman can have any procedure done without the permission of her husband, but in many states, doctors ask for the wife’s permission or at least acknowledgement before a man can have a surgical sterilization performed. That is to say, factually, you are 100% exactly and perfectly wrong.

        2) It is also men who are overwhelmingly the VICTIMS of murder and violence. Based on what you’ve written so far, it seems quite clear that this doesn’t bother you. In short, you are quite simply a bigot.

      • Are you saying that women never abuse or kill their children? If you accept that men and women are equal, then you accept that women are just as capable of bad behavior. When you add up heart attacks, work related accidents, suicides and wars, men are dying in far greater numbers than women. But that is what we are supposed to do, right?

      • “You’re either part of the solution or part of the problem and nobody is going to feel sorry for you.”

        Only a sith deals in absolutes.

  • @Leisha Young
    Your arrogance is a proof in itself.

    Regarding adapting/evolving, you mean hordes of young women taking up engineering and IT classes to be productive to society? All I see is `studies` graduates being mad at men for not succeeding, but of course they can always resort to marriage and get saved. Later they can decide to play the strongg indepedentt girll and leave with the man`s assets. Its a win-win strategy (exceptions: children and future of western civilization), not an adapting to anything.

    • There is no evidence in your argument, just a number of unsubstantiated and inconsequential statements. You sound bitter and I’m guessing that’s why you feel sorry for yourself.

      Grow up man! Stop blaming women for your problems and take control of your life.

  • Sorry, but had to delete a few comments. All opinions are welcome; name-calling and hostility are not. This isn’t YouTube.

    • Then why is “Leisha Young” still allowed to lie, insult and be overly aggressive?

      At least her hilarious hypocrisy makes for good comedy. “Stop playing the victim” after ranting about some supposed thousands of years of male on female oppression (those male peasants sent to die in wars hundreds of kilometers away certainly had lots of power) and then lies about domestic abuse and women, but has no issues victim the blaming when it’s a man suffering in a relationship.

      • Blaming the victim*

      • I guess the difference bystander is that women have been oppressed for millennia (the bible’s a good place to start to illustrate this), women in the Middle East are still oppressed daily with reprehensible violence, but they’ve got no idea how hard it can be for a white man in the west these days.

        White men have never been oppressed and despite what you think, you are not oppressed now, you are just feeling sorry for yourself because you no longer have the power and control you once had.

        How have you personally been oppressed by the feminist movement?

      • Let’s start with the media campaign that only puts men in focus when one is misbehaving. Let’s talk about the Australian Airlines that adopted a policy of moving men from unaccompanied minor because “all men are pedophiles.” The grandfather that got thrown out of Barnes and Nobles because some wacky mother didn’t like an old guy in the childrens section buying book for his grandkids. Feminist propaganda has resulted in men being viewed as nothing but violent pathological out of control sex fiends. Of coarse when women do the same you never hear of it. THAT’S how feminism is oppressive.

        Obamacare is another version of feminist oppression. Free birth control for women but not men? No mandatory coverage for vasectomies but plenty for female sterilization. Women can’t be charged more for health care despite being a greater risk but men can be charged more for car insurance. Supposedly testosterone is to blame for men taking risks so we can’t help that. Why should we pay more than women then? Again, feminists don’t complain when they get benefits but are silent when men are the victims of injustice.

      • None of what you have listed is the result of the feminist movement, but in response to the overwhelming number of crimes that involve men and the knee jerk responses to it. I don’t agree with these laws either but what on Earth makes you think feminists are responsible for it? Have you ever considered that it is also a response by the wider community to the prevalence of male violence in our communities? I’m not saying all men are violent, but the vast majority of violent crime in our communities is committed by men and the vast majority of deaths of women and children are at the hands of men.

        BTW, your suggestion that testosterone made you do it speaks volumes. Why is it that some men can control themselves when it comes to testosterone and some can’t?

        Stop making excuses and start facing up to some facts. It may be hard to, but Jesus! The testosterone made me do it? Come on!

      • @Anonymous: All of what I mentioned is caused at least in part by the feminist movement. We assume women aren’t pedophiles for example because popular attitude is if a woman prey’s on a young boy he is lucky. Feminists won’t allow for research that could potentially cast women as anything angels. They like having a plethora of statistics showing how bad men are but that is only because we don’t even study female crime. Women also get lighter sentences than men for the same crime. I don’t see feminists protesting that!

        The testosterone comment I made is backed up by science. Science states that testosterone fuels risk-taking behavior. Doing something dangerous behind the wheel is taking a risk. Why do some men control themselves better than others? Every man has a different level of testosterone. A body builder for instance is going to have more issues with rage than a computer nerd like myself.

        Male violence is often a result of abandonment and treating men like disposable fixtures. Feminism is directly responsible here but so are other factors. Men use violence to survive. If you look at gang related crimes for instance, many men join gangs because they lack the skills / opportunities to survive in today’s economy. With a ridiculous amount of scholarships going preferentially to women, men get thrown by the wayside. As a result they are unable to be contenders in the economy and resort to violence for basic survival needs. Feminists do not at any level value the dignity of a male human being. They have run more derogatory campaigns like “She Fears You” and falsely manufactured an education crisis for girls in the 90’s to the detriment of young boys. Christina Hoff Sommers exposed the AAUW for their dishonest research in her book “The War Against Boys” but feminists silence her and refuse to let her be heard. The feminist lobby is a powerful one and its influence is undeniable to persons educated on the issues.

      • I guess the difference is that women have been oppressed for millennia

        Ye, yes, the fact that some male neither of us ever met oppressed some female neither of us ever met, both of whom are now dead, makes it TOTALLY OK and not unjust at all for you to oppress me now.

        Do you even listen to yourself? If equality is the goal, then let’s make this EQUAL. If equality is not the goal, then men can (and will) rule, simply by force if nothing else – that’s the hand genetics has dealt. I, as a man, would really prefer equality, by a large margin.

      • “I guess the difference bystander is that women have been oppressed for millennia (the bible’s a good place to start to illustrate this), ”

        eh, do we have the same book?
        Do you mean the part where God tells Abraham to do whatever his wife says, or where Judah says Tamar is more righteous than he, or when the Jews appoint Deborah as their judge and she leads them in battle? Have you read the Song of Songs?

        I assume you mean because Abraham has two wives and Jacob had 4. HORROR! So you are bigotted not just against men, but Muslims and Mormons also?

        Before you deign yourself worthy to prejudge another culture, think about the context.
        Not only was that normal 4000 years ago, it benefitted women. Lots of men were killed in wars, leaving surplus women. Without polygamy they would have been abandoned and died or become prostitutes. Would you rather have been Jacob’s 4th wife (and only get him twice a week and only get 1/4 of his fortune), or be starving or a whore?

        This is still relevant. I spoke to a guy who helps foreigners apply for the immigration lottery. There was a fellow in Nigeria with two wives. He won. But he could only bring one wife to the US, because, well, polygamy is sexist dontyouknow! So he had to choose which wife (and kids) to effectively abandon, due to our feminist and culturally biased immigration laws. So feminism wins again, no polygamy allowed and that poor women and kids are screwed. Thanks feminism!

      • The difference is that men have been taught to be expendable since birth. Unless you come from a wealthy family and/or have connections. For the last 40 years, the Feminist message has been that all men are potential rapists, pedophiles and abusers. We must be costantly watched, or drugged as kids. The next time you see a homeless man, ask how he is enjoying his dominance.

  • Leisha, put down the sword, seriously. Is it that hard to just think a bit? Maybe not agree, but think about it? Why does it need to turn so hostile so fast? The only bitter one here is you.

    • I’m actually not bitter, I’m a very happy person. I am just sick and tired of men feeling sorry for themselves because they’ve lost some power. When you strip back the arguments against feminism (and me personally), that are appearing on this board (so predictable BTW), it shows nothing but a bunch of guys who are bitter about women.

      Why is it that so many men can embrace the new world and accept their part in it, but there are always the ones that refuse to accept modernity and pretend to be some kind of victim in a world that has left them behind?

      The world only leaves you behind if you refuse to change your attitude and your behavior. If you cling onto the past (and some mythical better time), then the world is going to bypass you and you will become more and more angry.

      What is it about the modern world that these men can’t deal with?

      Calling me bitter and a feminist is not an argument, it’s just an insult and exhibits an underlying prejudice in the thinking of these kinds of men.

      The world has changed, and you either change with it or you consign yourself to the past. These are your options.

      Try counselling, try going back to school and up-skilling, do whatever you have to do to move forward, but move forward.

      Pity parties are not going to help you, and are not going to make people feel sorry for you. In fact, it does the exact opposite.

      • You must not be very good with numbers. The point of the book was that there is a VERY LARGE number of men with this attitude. It isn’t just a handful. And to be quite honest Leisha, why do you care if men don’t want to marry or be around women? How does that in anyway subtract from you? Men are entitled to their opinion and if they are happy to avoid women what is the big deal? Your posts seem to suggest that you think men are “neanderthalic cavemen preoccupied with controlling women” so aren’t men doing you a favor by getting out your way? I mean really, you should be thanking these men, not scolding them. Or is it you don’t like the feeling of rejection?

      • I’m married actually, so no rejection here (so now I’ll wait for all of the ‘what a poor guy’ diatribe). I don’t have a problem with the fact that men are choosing to stay single and not marry, I have a problem with the idea that this is because they feel hard done by and are looking for pity. It’s total BS.

      • Actually, if you’ll note, they AREN’T looking for pity, by and large. That’s rather the whole point – they are simply dropping out and avoiding the whole thing. The only reason this is even coming up is because there are some WOMEN looking into why that is.

        Reading comprehension? Hello?

      • @Leisha: Women have pity parties all the time. In fact feminism is essentially one big pity party and they use emotion to get their way. That’s what adolescence do. They go on forever about how “independent and empowered” they are but when responsibility comes knocking they hide under their bed.

      • As far as people in power, Hillary Clinton is no different than her husband. They both have the same sociopathic lust for power and hate anything not under their control. Janet Reno, Janet Neopolitano and Dianne Feinstein are just the female side of the same male politicians who consider most of us expendable. You think a female President would not send kids off to war?

  • Indeed. What horrid views she has. She just underlines why Dr Helen Smith’s book is needed!

  • I would like every man on this board to illustrate how they have ‘personally’ been made a victim of the modern world and the feminist movement.

    BTW, I don’t mean the collective ‘we’ I mean you personally. Not the guy down the street, not your window washer, not the guy on TV last night, but you personally.

    • And I would like every woman on this board to point out how they personally are still under the thumb of the evil, evil patriarchy. Giggle.

      But, if you want examples of what it’s like, I can tell you a few, both personal and friends that I’ve personally witnessed – things that no one even THINKS about when a woman does it get whisper campaigns and even police visits when a man does it.

      Heck, I know one guy who was thrown out of his house (via restraining order, so no actual trial necessary) over an incident that was A) acknowledged by all parties to be an accident, B) involved no actual nudity (merely the beginning of undressing in the wrong room in the dark), C) involved no physical contact (obviously), D) happened past the statute of limitations in the past, and E) was only known about by 3rd hand hearsay (that is to say, they had no court-admissible evidence AT ALL). The child they supposedly protecting from this terrible, evil pedophile had lived with him another 8 years before it came to light (with no further incidents) and finally left the family in shame and guilt so her father could live with her mother and other siblings again and suffered several years of depression.

      Tell me again how great it is to be a man again? Find me a story like that about a woman. And yes, I’ve got plenty more. I’ll call your BS, because that’s what it is.

      Address the actual facts, why don’t you? Not the historical facts that happened before you were born, the facts of TODAY. I mean, sure, it’s awful that the Monguls raped the women they conquered when the merely tortured and killed the men, but hey, barring the invention of time travel, we can’t really do anything about any of that, OK?

    • Leisha – (by the way, you did not respond to my comment above pointing out evidence that women commit half or nearly half of domestic violence and why this is undercounted).

      I work in an office in which the majority of the staff, most supervisors, and the boss are women. It is known among the rank and file workers that you have to kiss butt to get promoted. The female supervisors have their ‘girl friends’ who they do lunch with and chat with (on the clock of course). Some have described this as the queen bee recruiting her royal court.
      Now, I have not been in the office long enough to be certain, but it seems that the women who are buddies with the bosses get promoted faster. Of course, if I said any of this at work I would be called a bigot, or they would tell me it is only fair since men make more (not true) and historical injustice etc.

      My other illustration is my mother. When she divorced my father, she claimed that she was threatened and got the judge to deny any visitation rights. For years. If the court system was not biased for women, they might have actually demanded proof of her allegation, you know “innocent until proven guilty”.

      Oh, another. I witnessed a couple (already having some problems) in which the wife was doing things to provoke the husband to hit her. The husband was a lawyer and did not take the bait, since he knew that women can hit men, but if a man hits back its straight to jail for the man, and to the shelter for the woman.

      (btw, this explains why the studies show that although women are the domestic abuser just as much as men are, women die from domestic violence more than men. Some of the women are doing it just to provoke the man so they can bring in the cops and get the court on their side.)

  • You have no idea what a feminist looks like. You could be sitting next to one on the train and never know it! Scary isn’t it?

    • Actually, in the classic sense, I AM a feminist. Modern feminism, which you are certainly acting a lot like, is not looking for equality, it is simply anti-male.

      This is the “feminism” you are being accused of – the modern activities of the self-proclaimed “leaders” of feminism, who are so extreme that even most women now feel the need to distance themselves from them.

  • I urge you all to read this:

    http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2013/08/men_must_stand_against

    It is written by a man, not a woman.

    • Leisha, your comments are more representative of misandry than any guys here represent misogyny. Women in practice define misogyny as anything that makes them unhappy. If waking up on the left side of the bed makes a woman unhappy she calls that misogyny. If a man throws himself off a cliff and that makes a woman unhappy, again its misogyny. Misogyny is mainly a term used by women to make men feel guilty into giving something to them. Sure, there are some men that literally think women are inferior but most of us are not those men. I believe in equality but feminism is about matriarchy and establishing female rule through relational aggression.

  • I’ve been trying to think if there is anything constructive I can add to this discussion. I’m not sure that there is.

    What I’ve noticed though, is how like the ‘typical’ male/female argument it became from comment no.1.

    The forum opens.

    The first commenter dumps 12,000 years of pent up female hostility over every transgression that has ever been perpetrated against women by men into the “conversation” as an opening gambit. This has the effect of invalidating any possible male response. We can’t talk about your position because my position is so much more valid.

    End of conversation.

    A guy [maybe a little annoyed] does respond, with corrects facts, statistics and citations steps in to defend his/men’s positions.

    It was all down hill from there.

    I found myself wanting to walk away from the whole thing realizing there was no way to win-win except to shut up and agree with her – who ever ‘her’ happens to be.

    Ladies, you need to give the guy a little intellectual space to operate out of. What were talking about is how men actually feel about themselves and their position in the world. If you invalidate his position from the opening sentence you will never have a conversation, and you will never find out how he feels. I am informed that this is important to women [except the Alison Bechdel's of this world].

    Dr. Smith’s ideas seem very interesting and worthy of discussion. It’s a pity that we don’t seem to be able to actually talk about any of them.

    W^3

  • Here is another title for people to pick-up, read, and ponder if the are inclined: The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys by David Benatar; Wiley-Blackwell 2012 – not usually the first person I run to for intellectual cover because of his antinatalist sentiments, but this seems to be a fairly academic treatment of the subject. Benatar himself seems to thing he will be widely misunderstood, so handle with care.

  • Leisha, I really, REALLY think you need to lighten up a little, or maybe get some treatment. I’m not sure which but there is something profoundly wrong with your view of the world.

    There’s no point in pulling your supposed arguments apart piece by bigoted, hateful piece because that’s been done already. All I can say is that my wife and I and our wide circle of friends (of both sexes) and our even wider circle of customers (of both sexes) all live in harmony. No abuse, no rape, no violence, no oppression, no subjugation. I could go on and on but it would just get boring, a bit like your arguments.

    I don’t know what world you live in but it is most certainly not mine.

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